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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

They got married on the day of the Pope's funeral? What scum!

4-10-05 3:45pm (new)
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Buffylavalamp
Member - Tobor Fan Club

Member Rated:


The problem wasn't so much him saying "Don't use condoms," the problem has been the massive effort the Vatican has put into making sure that international efforts to stem the AIDS epidemic don't bring up condoms as part of the education.

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Please remember to spay and neuter your elected representatives.

4-10-05 3:57pm (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

Priests are in a position of power. They are adults who are given authority in their respective professions to be the beacon's of God's word. Children are in these churches to learn about God and spirituality or even just to go through the motions of it. A priest uses his authority as a teacher and as a SPIRITUAL leader to molest children. That is as wrong as a schoolteacher molesting children. This is a man that is, according to...THE POPE, supposed to be a holy man, a man of divine moral judgement. Children are supposed to trust priests as MEN OF GOD.

Now, as the LEADER of any organization, if your "clientelle" are being abused by your people, it is your responsibility to CORRECT THIS. At the very least, you should stop hiring people that are prone to abuse your clientelle.

Child molestation is wrong in any organization, on any level. It is DOUBLY wrong in an organization that claims to be THE moral compass of the world.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

4-11-05 6:37am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

Then they had sex on his grave.

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What others say about boorite!

4-11-05 7:39am (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

I thought they hadn't buried him yet.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

4-11-05 8:34am (new)
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Inflatable_Man
Heart stopper. Hip hopper. Pill popper.

Member Rated:

They had sex on his body.

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Destroying my reputation one post at a time.

4-11-05 8:38am (new)
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boorite
crazy knife lady

Member Rated:

I thought they hadn't buried him yet.[/quote]

I said "then," i.e., subsequently.

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What others say about boorite!

4-11-05 8:58am (new)
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UnknownEric
and the Goblet of Mountain Dew.

Member Rated:

Gives a new meaning to "tramp the dirt down."

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I has a flavor!

4-11-05 10:39am (new)
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KajunFirefly
chooby digital (in stereo)

Member Rated:

[quote]Child molestation is wrong in any organization, on any level. It is DOUBLY wrong in an organization that claims to be THE moral compass of the world.
[/quote]So, if an athiest rapes my son, I should be thankful that at least he wasn't a Catholic?

The point that I'm making that you all fail to be grasping is that the Pope has never, EVER said that raping kids is okay. If you somehow read into his actions that because he hasn't shot the priests in his organisation that were guilty of child fucking that it's somehow okay for you to go and do it, you are wrong. He's the head of an organisation who's entire message is built on forgiveness, sadly, if the priest in question turns round and begs for forgiveness, there isn't much JP can do but grant it to him and maybe ask him to be a bit more careful in the future.

The Pope went to prison to visit the guy that shot him and forgave him, although I'm pretty sure anyone with half a brain didn't read into that as JP saying "grab yourself a gun and let's go CRAZY!".

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Dad was flammable

4-11-05 10:41am (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

What? What does athiesm have to do with it? Athiesm doesn't have an autonomous base within a country that hands down edicts to it's various arms. And if it were Rabbis doing this, that would be JUST as wrong. Athiesm does not claim to be the moral compass of the world, either. I haven't seen an athiest church in my travels. That kind of defeats the purpose of atheism. If it were Rabbis doing this to children, I would also hold the spiritual leader of Judaism responsible for the removal of their offending clergy. And the only reason I would do that is because that's what THEY decreed. We'd be working under THEIR guidelines. The Pope decided that instead of letting the Justice System deal with the offending priests, the Church would. If the Church has decided to be the end-all, be-all for this sort of crime, then they MAKE themselves responsible for ir.

No, that's not the issue. The issue is his inaction, which does not say it's okay for you to go and molest kids. That's completely minimalizing the entire point. What it MIGHT say is that child molestation is still wrong, but the punishment is not very severe. That's not the same as saying it's okay. It's saying it's not as bad as some schlub outside the church fucking children. These priests are not generally turned over to the police, they are dealt with "within the church". They (the Church)consider themselves the authority that can deal with these issues. No other organization is allowed this sort of protection, save maybe the other two major religions in America.

Sure there is, Kajun. That much is so obvious I can't even believe you'd skip by it. TURN THEM OVER TO THE AUTHORITIES. JP wanted to forgive them, that's fine. But they still should be serving the punishment appropriate for such CRIMES.

That guy was IN PRISON, where the kiddie rapists should be. JP didn't take that guy out of jail and give him a job in the Vatican, did he? Did he get his sentence reduced? Did he protect him from prosecution?

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

4-11-05 11:50am (new)
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KajunFirefly
chooby digital (in stereo)

Member Rated:

Michael, Michael, Michael.

Please, take a seat and shut up for a moment. Firstly, your nonsense athiesm rant: What I was picking up on was your absurd statement that raping a kid was "DOUBLY" wrong when a priest did it. Raping a kid is pretty fucking severe, it makes absolutely no difference who is on the scrotum end of the penetrating cock or what his position in the community is.

Being raped by Michael Jackson sounds like it came with a lot of perks, but it would have been just as awful if the smelly piss-stained wino at the end of the street had done it.

Then there's your following repetitive argument about how you wish the priests would go to jail, you've made that point, I've made mine, we're not going to get anywhere.

But I'll say one more thing one more time:

I, Kajun F Firefly, do believe that anyone, ANYONE who rapes a child should be jailed and/or have their scrotums eating by wild dogs.

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Dad was flammable

4-11-05 12:51pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

But I don't like wild dogs!

4-11-05 12:59pm (new)
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MikeyG
Shoots the shit and often misses

Member Rated:

I must have struck a nerve.

Tommy, Tommy, Tommy.

Attacking the fervor behind my argument and/or the repetative nature of it may work on other people, but it doesn't work on me.

Is it actually DOUBLY wrong when a priest rapes a kid? Maybe not in an exact mathematical sense. It is definitely greater of a crime than if some vagrant rapes a child. Why?

People don't put their trust and faith in a vagrant. People don't even put their trust and faith in teachers as much as they do in priests. A priest is supposed to be a beacon of morality. Hell, that's his goddamned JOB. A parent can claim no such thing. A vagrant can claim no such thing. A politician can't even claim that. A teacher can't claim that. A priest is a public figure who is given a greater trust than most people. The BREACH OF TRUST itself is similar to an accountant stealing your money. Their job is to make sure your money doesn't get stolen. If a bunch of accountants from the same firm keep stealing people's goddamn money, you are going to start wondering about the boss.

You're supposed to trust a priest with your kid because he is a chosen representative OF GOD. You're supposed to be able to trust ANYONE to not rape your kid, and the last person you'd think would do something like that is a goddamn man of the cloth. A babysitter raping a kid is pretty goddamn bad, too. Huge breach of trust there. It would be even worse if the babysitter was religiously vocal, seeing as how it's completely hypocritical of them to rape a child according to THEIR OWN belief system.

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The giant three-phallused phallus of Uzbekistan will one day squirt the cosmic jizz of revenge all over Canada.

4-11-05 1:23pm (new)
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KajunFirefly
chooby digital (in stereo)

Member Rated:

Remember when I said that priests raping kids was okay?

No, me neither.

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Dad was flammable

4-11-05 2:06pm (new)
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Inflatable_Man
Heart stopper. Hip hopper. Pill popper.

Member Rated:

[quote]Remember when I said that priests raping kids was okay?

No, me neither. [/quote]

No one is accusing you of that, but andydougan, Mikey, myself and practically everyone besides you who has commented in this thread has pointed out that yes, the Pope should bear some responsibility if priests in his clergy are fucking kids, and he should act accordingly to stop it. Not only should it be condemned in the STRONGEST TERMS possible, but there should be actions as well. There were no actions and it was swept under the carpet by the Vatican as quickly as possible. In fact, right now Cardinal Law who moved priests around in Boston after they were accused of molesting kids, is voting for the new Pope as part of the conclave, having not even been reprimanded for his part in the abuse scandal. If John Paul was doing his job, Law would have been defrocked and condemned as a monster. Yet, you don't think the Pope should do anything about a crisis that's apparently pretty well-spread among the Catholic Church. Your only argument is "people are stupid and if priests do stupid things the Pope isn't to blame", which is pretty fucking stupid within itself.

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Destroying my reputation one post at a time.

4-11-05 2:54pm (new)
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KajunFirefly
chooby digital (in stereo)

Member Rated:

Actually, I think you'll find my original point was that if someone rapes a kid, that person is wrong and no-one else.

I never said that the Pope shouldn't do anything about the kiddie-fiddling that goes on, I just said that the fact that he hasn't is no excuse for others to take that as a cue to penetrate minors.

I'm pretty sure that's me into double figures now in posts that say exactly the same thing.

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Dad was flammable

4-11-05 3:03pm (new)
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Inflatable_Man
Heart stopper. Hip hopper. Pill popper.

Member Rated:

[quote]Actually, I think you'll find my original point was that if someone rapes a kid, that person is wrong and no-one else.

I never said that the Pope shouldn't do anything about the kiddie-fiddling that goes on, [/quote]

You seem to be contradicting yourself. If the Pope doesn't do anything about the kiddie fiddling (and it's fully within his power to do something), doesn't that make him wrong?

To give a hypothetical example, if I saw someone lying on the road about to get hit by a car, I *could* just leave him there and technically I wouldn't have done anything wrong, but if it's within my power to save him then if I have any fucking decency I should save him.

Join the club.

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Destroying my reputation one post at a time.

4-11-05 3:19pm (new)
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niteowl
Level 1 Forum Troll

Member Rated:

Here's a link regarding this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4432283.stm

Quote from the link:
That's great. Law molests kids and the Pope gives him a new job outside of Boston. Why does Law have a job with the church at all? That motherfucker should be in jail, period. That's why the Pope is responsible. He condoned the molestation of kids by allowing that scumbag to continue on in the church.

Forgiveness...Ha. Ask the kids who were molested, or their parents how they feel about forgiveness when a prick like Law gets a slap on the fucking wrist for his crimes.

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Think classy, you'll be classy.

4-11-05 4:09pm (new)
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andydougan
Film critic subordinaire

Member Rated:

Law didn't molest kids.

But yeah, the Pope's a cunt.

4-11-05 4:12pm (new)
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DragonXero
I'm Here, You're Queer, Get Used to it

Member Rated:

I really liked how Sin City dealt with child molesters. "I took away his weapons. Both of them."

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Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.

4-11-05 4:18pm (new)
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niteowl
Level 1 Forum Troll

Member Rated:

Oops...still, he's just as guilty for covering it up as those who did it. The Pope was also just as guilty for not punishing Law.

---
Think classy, you'll be classy.

4-11-05 4:21pm (new)
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choadwarrior
Crash Magnet

Member Rated:

Okay, okay, okay...this thread needs a little expert advice. For those of you who don't know, I'm a director of risk management for a high school district. That means I not only have the task of defending the district from allegations of sexual abuse by staff, I also have the responsibility to prevent it from occurring in the first place. I know a lot about this subject and have attended conferences specifically discussing the U.S. Catholic church child molestation crisis, how they reacted, and how a responsible organization should react if a staff member (huh huh...member) is accused of sexually abusing a child.

The first responsiblity is to report the suspicion to law enforcement. In California, all school district employees, psychologists, doctors, child care providers, and CLERGY are mandated reporters of child abuse. I'm sure the other 49 states have similar laws. If the police drop the case, that's their call, but at least the mandatory reporter met his/her obligation. The reporting threshold is very low--if a mandatory reporter knows or reasonably suspects that a child may be a victim of abuse by an adult, they must make the report. "Reasonable suspicion" basically means if you you can articulate your suspicions to another person and they would draw the conclusion that child/sexual abuse MAY exist, then you must report it. In this case, any time the church was aware that a priest possibly molested a child and failed to report it, it was responsible for every subsequent act of molestation committed by that person.

Occasionally, the police will elect not to investigate an allegation, but that doesn't mean inappropriate behaviour did not occur...just that there might not be enough evidence to charge someone with illegal conduct. If that's the case, the organization still has to conduct an investigation and if inappropriate conduct did occur, jump on it and prevent it from occurring again, either with that person in particular or organization-wide.

A term gets thrown around a lot is "willful indifference." Whenever an organization has a duty of care (i.e., they're watching over kids while their parents are elsewhere) and they know of abuse, but take no steps to stop it, then they are equally liable. Yes, it may be the lecherous priest or employee who is committing the act, but as soon as the employer is aware, they have a duty to prevent further harm.

I also think of "negligent entrustment" and "negligent hiring" in the case of the U.S. Catholic church. Whenever they knowingly placed a priest with a history of abuse in a position where he had access to kids, they were negligent in their reckless disregard for child safety. Whenever they transferred a priest with a history of abuse to another location and failed to inform the new management of the reason for the transfer, they were negligent for all of the foregoing reasons.

I don't personally blame the Pope for any first-time incident any more than I would want to be blamed if one of my teachers whom I never met diddled a kid this morning in a classroom I've never been in. However, if I became aware of problems in my organization, I'd sure act quickly to find out who's doing it and get them out--either by law enforcement or constructive discharge. If I didn't, I'd expect my name to be right next to the district's and the teacher's when the lawsuit is filed after the second incident is discovered.

The sad thing is, the church could have wiped out this problem decades ago by purging the molesters, taking the lead in reporting them to law enforcement, and showing their parishoners (and more importantly any molester in their ranks) that they take the safety of their children seriously and they do not tolerate sinful or illegal activity by those who should be trusted above all. Since this has been going on for decades, it's really a problem JP inheireted, however, with the right spin, they could have minimized the scandal and what damage they suffered to their good will would have been short-lived and minor. Instead, everyone knows of the institutionally sanctioned sexual abuse of children endemic to the U.S. Catholic church and it will take at least a generation before they fully recover in this country, if at all.

It didn't take me long to learn in my career that you fight when you're right and you admit it and get out of harm's way as quickly as possible when you are wrong. Since the U.S. Catholic church didn't act appropriately, we then have to go up to the next level and ask, who could have stopped this? Perhaps the Pope could have instructed his U.S. cardinals to clean house and ensure their priests live by the moral code they preach.

4-11-05 7:13pm (new)
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attitudechicka
is never bored.

Member Rated:

Okay, here's what I'm getting:

"The Pope is the worst person to ever live!"

"Why?"

"Because he lets priests molest children!"

That's it? Fuck, POLICE OFFICERS let children get molested daily. They even molest children themselves.

I understand Flate's point about forgiveness, but it's easy to say you'd never forgive if you've never had to. Not everyone has the same point of view, and sometimes it isn't right vs wrong, black vs white. It's actually pretty grey.

So if child molestation is the only reason the Pope is so terrible that you should say "Fuck the Pope", then Fuck the police, Fuck the kid in the high school in my neighborhood who molested a mentally handicapped child in the bathroom stall, and Fuck Michael Jackson (Oh, come on, you know he's guilty).

---
Mediocrity at its most average.

4-11-05 7:27pm (new)
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choadwarrior
Crash Magnet

Member Rated:

By the way, I'm pulling for Cardinal Glick in the Conclave.


4-11-05 7:42pm (new)
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choadwarrior
Crash Magnet

Member Rated:

Okay, a half-hour after posting the above screed, I happened to watch this on Scarborough Country:

[Click to view comic: 'Welcome to Scarborough Country']

4-11-05 8:05pm (new)
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